#Dutch Masters

aight

Postby Dzia-Dzia » July 15th, 2006, 12:47 am

echt urban zeg
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Postby BeeFree » July 15th, 2006, 9:03 am

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Postby concepterrorism » July 16th, 2006, 12:24 pm

Too much dutch for me.
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Postby JACE » July 17th, 2006, 12:19 pm

Mouais a moins de s'appeler "Jean-Paul rouvres", on y comprend pas grand chose !!!!
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Dutch Masters

Postby Tristan » July 17th, 2006, 2:06 pm

One of the best discussions for a while here.

First I would like to say that I like Dutch Art - from Van Gogh to Hieronymus Bosch to Karel Appel. Dutch art is always breaking traditions and finding new ways.

Holland was also one of the first places to import American style graffiti and had its own graffiti traditions before including stencils. I imagine the curator is trying to say something about a new wave of Dutch art with a graffiti context.

When I have talked to some contemporary art curators - they say that "graffiti" is not for them, it doesn't tick the right boxes. They also don't have the specialised knowledge to put it in context. People still reference Basquiat and Haring (as graffiti influenced artists) with little awareness of the many other nuances to graffiti culture. Basically many curators don't feel comfortable in this field - I think they need to see more to understand it maybe?

"Street Market" was the last show that I think stuck in some curators heads around the world. That has been a bench mark for some to perhaps repeat and copy. But by trying to recreate something they are not really rigourous in their thinking. These graffiti themed artists are being treated differently to other contemporary artists. It's a jumble/garage sale approach rather than the heavily researched and documented approach than is afforded to fine art. That's not to say that these artists or other artists are not good - but nice to have an interesting thread to the idea of the show.

Having said that this work seems well-hung, high production values and some good works from some of my favourite artists! I would love to visit it.

I don't think its this show in particular that starts the debate - it's a discussion about the way young artists are treated and how the establishment embraces the creative energy that is out there. I think it is a shame that many graffiti and graphic artists are sometimes given a wall, some paint and a cheap hostel and then they are supposed to be grateful of the opportunity. It is nice to have more resources available - I don't know much about this show but it looks like some resources were there.

That's my two pence worth...
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Postby Reply » July 17th, 2006, 4:38 pm

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things before...

Postby obetre » July 17th, 2006, 11:23 pm

hello braves gentes .
It's A little difficult to come now, to put my brick on it...
But I just want write......to say that I read interesting write here.
I m studing writting, graffiti, street art, urban art and how things like that emerge from somewhere. Somewhere where discussion and action cross them self to produce space where creative things emerge to show to the most of people to recogniize the world where we living, and how THIS is changing it.
I m sure writing or pichacao or post graffiti and so called street art change the way that we perceive our contribution to the "living together". I m realy intersesting about how we can live beter together, my intuition is that graffiti since end of 60 open a door for all people to live better. I m like to be utopist. I like to be critic. I m not sure taht this exhibition will open some doors. I realy happy to see that they are critic here about what happening in exhibition who presume have a role in the developing of art in public space. I think that just want to make something new is some time the only way to ameliorate a movement. Maybe this one begins Dada. Maybe he begins with writers. One for quality, the other for quantity? I m not sure, but what the fuck we are talking about! I hope not just making something (?) knew, not just beeing famous or show or not contradicting ourself. FUck (loveky fuck)
What a exhibition can do for making life better, creating lovely baby? If this exhibition can push kids, youngs, adult, grand mother and extra-terrestre makings tags, graffiti, street art or some things that came from a self-person to enlarge freedom of speech, freedom of action, freedom of action in public space, freedom and power to criticise society and all the fuck'in deep injustice that some are living (more than the so called artist nowdays) and to act for them... that this exhibition is realy good for me. If not... hum... it s maybe just a exhibition for art, for viewers, not for actors, just for making the machine continu....
I m often suprise that ther are so much "just cartoons" in this type of exhibition. Rarely cartoons telling deep thought.
Less and less I look image in exhibition, internet, fanzin about graffiti or street art of fuckin else!!! but what they have to say, to express with words.... maybe that's my brick I give here.
Why don't a curator push the artist to express them self like here..... giving a point o view of how they see the worl of (street) ((art))? Is there any book, exhibition where we can read what the "masters", and most the other think about art/society/justice/evolution?
Maybe that the inovating'writing is HERE for the moment.
Thanks eko, thanks all of you.
Take care of your self and the other...[color=olive]
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dutch toy

Postby d'invluensko » July 18th, 2006, 11:30 am

i just don't understand it. i'm just a humble outsides ofcourse, but it seems so simple to just make an exhibition about the attitude behind 'streetart' that results in something different, then to make an exhibition about the visual ways it presents itself only, as we have seen so many times now.

the works are beautiful i am sure you know, but what does it all say? where does it all go? what if laws change? responces by and infiltrations by companies? oppinions of general public? do the artists change, or they ignore it all and continue to play the same glossy tunes on and on untill their dreams come true and money falls into their pockets?

in art there are many interesting ways things are being exhibited and messages are being transmited through the presented works. only in the field of streetart it always seems a 1 dimentional line-up of somewhat random participants - nothing else.

*perhaps something for another topic on this forum, so beginning curators without inspiration could shop from there: what an artshow could be about (comparing dutch 17th century painters with 21st century graphic designers working in a mad urban mannor, through showing their common backgrounds, roots, or culture or the opposite, could be a nice start)
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Re: things before...

Postby obetre » July 18th, 2006, 1:09 pm

Making something in situe.
Consider the space not just as spacial physical things... that you can put some paint on it, beautifull paint on it. But as a social and political space.
How question this space, as a structure of expression, debate, living, "have fun space", telling critics....?
How make the people more tolerant, more social conscious, more political actvist (not just as a participate to huge and boring lecture)?
How open new public space?
I like, I need... the idea that the artist think of what he contribute to make living better, how public see, not just the thing painted, but all that constitute the whole frame.
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Postby d'invluensko » July 18th, 2006, 4:18 pm

voila
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Postby ///EROSIE/// » July 19th, 2006, 12:15 pm

...what seems to be a point here is that there are so many rich, interesting sides to this"phenomena", either visually, conceptually, socially, politically even, historically etc.etc. that focussing on just one aspect in this field (exhibition-wise) seems to do that no good...it seems to lead to a far too dominant 1-dimensional view.

The point Tristan made seems to be an interesting one as well: That this discussion partly is about this exhibition in the GEM, or exhibitions in general, but also about the way (urban) artists are treated...in general, and how the establishment (either commmercial or institutional) embraces this background..or lack of background.

It's probably a give and take situation; maybe some people want to be adapted by the establishment? At any cost? Or no cost? :D

I like to add the question of how "urban" artists see themselves as a point of discussion. There seems to be an "anything will do" attitude of quite a lot of people from the "urban arts"-field; resulting in so many sum-up-send-in exhibitions or publicationsas a result. Where the sum of people overshadows the point of making an exhibition or publication.

Personally "back to the roots" to me working in the "urban environment" always has been a claim to artistic freedom, or freedom in general. Maybe it's like how hiphop/graffiti started: making something cool from scrap. Two turntables and a microphone-type attitude. Or the situationalists reactive attitude even...or dada...it always reacted/reacts to a certain movement/situation that was before, but WILL BE CHANGED! "WE JUST DO IT LIKE THIS AND WE DON'TCARE IF IT FITS OR NOT!"

It becomes a different game I guess when this mentatlity is replaced...when suddenly there is a white cube, a posh publication or a chance to cash-in by doing a sponsored job for instance. When one looses that sense of background,when one looses the point of even asking the question "why".

This seems to be the difference between somebody from the "urban field" and let's say a skilled graphic designer, or comic drawer, a painter or sculptor. It's too mediocre to see having a certain background (urban) just being reflected by "that painterly quality" or "that illustrative touch" since there ar so many people in other fields going much deeper and deeper in it. For good comic-images; why not simply ask good comic artists? There's thousands amazing ones that don't have that "urban"background...but do amazing work anyway...

What other reason other than a flimsy one like "fashionable" or "it's simply what happens now" should there be to ask somebody with an "urban background" for let's say , an exhibiton?

It's probably all about skipping that "urban" label and simply look at what a specific artist wants to show, wants to achieve...and decide if that's interesting to show or not. Regardless of the mad-urban background. Cause if there is not even that background, but only a slight smell of it, who even cares??? :iron:
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Postby ehgz » July 19th, 2006, 1:24 pm

' ironing erosie'... it's way too hot to use that smiley man... pfffff... :shock:

the problem with this discussion is that the artists were called urban painters. the fucus seems to be on streetart, but it's all about creating nice poppy things together! streetartists or not... nowadays it's just very cool to call the artists who participate 'urban artists' who work on the streets (when normal people like you and me sleep!). they come out of their creative urban laboratories and do their expressive thing walking and jumping around like mystical nightcats! wow... woooooosjjjj...
it ca be a good thing to start an exhibition with the concept of 'art' from the streets, but if they wanted to really do something with that concept it should have been worked out very different... just read what influenza, erosie and other say about that subject. most of the artists who participated know that well and did not even think this discussion would come up... but it's cool innit?

i understand that the curators wanted to simply introduce this kind of artform to a wider audience. case is that i don't think there is not one form of streetart... for instance, to me it's just using your (urban or rural lol) surroundings to express your ideas, graphics and drawings. but you can do so many things using the street surroundings... just something very interesting to to besides your office job or illustration/ graphic design job... sober, but also being piss drunk... all good.

still have to go see it. some pics on the urban hiphopinjesmoel forum looked cool...
the discussion was about the concept and the curators... not the artists... we'll go see their cool ideas/ just nice stuff...
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Postby ehgz » July 19th, 2006, 1:27 pm

:!:
Last edited by ehgz on July 19th, 2006, 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby ehgz » July 19th, 2006, 1:28 pm

haha... must be the heat... my computer is sweating...
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[retorical question]

Postby d'invluensko » July 19th, 2006, 10:57 pm

if you go to check the show, please fill us also in if you did discover any stuff outdoors from the participating artists.. am still very curious how devoted the participants themselves are with being visible in the streets. (i don't mean that hard to miss - not to discover and oh so beautiful collective effort outside the frontdoor)
..
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Postby d'invluensko » July 20th, 2006, 6:20 pm

*better: post some pictures
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Postby Reply » July 21st, 2006, 8:05 pm

Via R.C.

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Postby gaslek » July 22nd, 2006, 12:04 am

Ach fuck it ik wilde een hele lange reactie plaatsen maar ik heb hem gedelete aangezien ik deze hele tread niet de moeite waard vind. Mazzel
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Postby ///EROSIE/// » July 22nd, 2006, 10:40 am

haha dat blijkt
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Postby d'invluensko » July 22nd, 2006, 2:10 pm

ja, das ook een goeie!! ha2
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